Illegal posting/downloading of films

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hannah kipje

Illegal posting/downloading of films

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16/01/2008 13:51

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This discussion started in the Starter for Ten film thread. But I thought I would copy it here so people can keep talking about it.

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InspectorWa		#261	[url]	[-]
Actually lives here Posts: 525 01/15/08 16:10:19 Life Inspector	Is it allowed to post movies on Youtube?? I was quite surprised to find Atonement there, but why people doing CamRips and posting torrents can be banned and such people are not ? Well, I have nothing against the person who posted SfT and Atonement, but not all of people are such fans that will go to the cinema even after seeing it on-line just to see James or Keira. It makes a lot of harm to the film industry. OK, WTF am I talking about?... Just enjoy the movie!
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MsMarpleEM		#262	[url]	[-]
Owns spare key to the front door Posts: 413 01/15/08 18:14:21 Minister of Sheep Affairs	shelterfromthestorm wrote: Someone posted "Starter for Ten" on youtube. I bow to whoever did that! I do not share you feeling. I don't think youtube should be used for feature films, especially when they are available. Plus I think it is not really fun to watch the moviesin bad quality. I couldn't resist to peep into Atonement to be honest , but I stopped watching it, because it kind of spoilt the pleasure to watch a small blurry version of the movie.
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hannah kipje		#263	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 5016 01/15/08 18:22:37 Master of the House Slighty delusional yet harmless builder of this board grin	InspectorWa wrote: Is it allowed to post movies on Youtube?? Nope.. it's certainly not. As soon as they find out they will remove it. But the site is so big that someone needs to complain before they find it probably. I do doubt people that are willing to watch it in the terrible YouTube quality would even consider ever renting or buying the film, so I doubt it would take away much profit for the people that made it.. And the people that watch films on YouTube because thay cannot wait for it to come out will go see or buy it anyway.. So I doubt it does much harm really.. but no, by law, it is not allowed..
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shelterfromthestorm		#264	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 101 01/16/08 03:15:41	Interesting discussion, ladies. I feel I need to clarify a few things and add my two cents. First of all, I'd like to say that I'm a big movie fan. Having the choice, I much prefer to watch a movie in a proper movie theater. I think that even with the new technologies allowing us to have "a home theater", nothing replaces the entire ritual of going to a movie theater and watching a film there. I do not share you feeling. I don't think youtube should be used for feature films, especially when they are available. I respect that MsMarple, but I live in Brazil, so it's not available to me. "Starter for Ten" was never released here (not in theaters and not on DVD). I do have the possibility of buying the DVD on amazon.com. But (and I think I mentioned this in some other thread), not only do we pay a high shipping cost, but once it reaches our customs we also have to pay an additional 60% tax rate. So, if I buy something that costs $10, I pay $16. Add to that the currency conversion and we're talking expensive! As much as it's James we're talking about, it gets you thinking twice before buying something. So yes, I do bow to the person who posted the film online. If it weren't for her, I would not have been able to watch this movie. I'd rather watch a crappy version, then no version at all. You're not allowed to post movies on youtube, you're not allowed to download rips on peer-to-peer network, and so on... But at the same time, the industry can't deny that it works as a distribution tool. I agree with what Hannah said. If a fan is happy simply watching a crappy version on youtube, I doubt they'd shell out however many bucks to watch it in theaters if it weren't available at all. International distribution is generally crap. And I can't really figure out the logic to it. For instance, I found the "Inside I'm Dancing" DVD here (complete with Portuguese subtitles). So that one I was able to buy and enjoy at home (a movie that is also on youtube btw). But there are so many other small films that simply don't get released. No news of "Becoming Jane" yet down here. Although, I can't complain much. We get the major releases and most indie ones. And thanks to film festivals around the country we get the opportunity to see many movies from different nations. I'm sure there are worse countries than Brazil when it comes to distribution. Sorry if this is a loooooong post. Bottomline is, I was happy to have the opportunity to finally watch "Starter for Ten". And since I'm pretty much internet stupid when it comes to downloads, bittorrents, etc, youtube was the easiest option for me.
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ZhoraFRG		#265	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 190 01/16/08 03:45:55	Bottom line is: it's illegal. Period. No matter how many justifications you find for it, it's illegal to upload copyrighted material to You Tube or any other online facility to share it. Of course, as a fan you often are glad to find stuff online (especially the hard to come by stuff), and in most countries the mere downloading of stuff isn't illegal, just the sharing and distributing. But the person that uploaded the movies did something illegal and the actual owner of the material (in Atonement's case Focus Features/Universal) has every right to have it removed and legally persue the poster. And the damage to the movie industry done by pirating is undeniable, because a distributing tool it might be to post stuff online, but it doesn't get the studio/distributor etc any profits. And if they stop making profits, they'll stop making movies. Now, I don't mean to lecture anybody. I'm not free of sin myself,and I work in the movie theatre business , for Christ's sake. I believe it's each individual person's decision to be a part of movie pirating, in whichever shape, way or form....but you have to be aware that you are engaging in illegal activity. And there is no justification for it. Not even distributing or financial woes.....they're all just weak excuses, but no justifications. That's my opinion.
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shelterfromthestorm		#266	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 101 01/16/08 05:28:51	Hmmmm... I apologize if my post came across as "I'm more entitled to download because of this, this and that". It was not my intention. I was merely pointing out where I'm coming from. I'm well aware that I chose to watch the movie online. I may not have been the one to upload it, but I did participate in the activity. Uploading, sharing and downloading movies, tv shows, books, movies, etc. is illegal. I wasn't justifying what I did, but explaining my reasons for doing it. Granted, you may not have asked for one, nonetheless I chose to give it to you. The thing I don't agree with is that distribution and finantial problems are simply a woe. The fact that I don't have the option to buy a Brazilian DVD of Starter for Ten at a Brazilian price is a distribution problem. And this isn't just about this particular movie. Just to give an overview, distribution here is mainly done by American corporations who take up a lot of screen time that otherwise might have been given to a small british film, or a french film, or even a brazilian film (an even bigger sore spot when it comes to this debate), etc. As for DVDs, I haven't figured out yet why "Inside I'm Dancing" is available and "Starter for Ten" is not, for instance. The role of the internet in all this is a reality that first the music industry had to tackle (remeber when it all began with Napster?) and now the movie industry does as well. And they have become savy at it, otherwise the writer's strike wouldn't touch on the subject of "residuals for new media" (ie the internet). Well, I read your opinion Zhora and I respect it. I just felt the need to somewhat explain a little further what goes on in my country in terms of importing cultural goods and entertainment (it's a discussion that has been going on for ages and I won't bore you any more than I already have). Whereas I wasn't trying to make justifications it did seem like so and I own up to that. On the internet I admit to watching "Starter for Ten", "State of Play and many episodes of "Shameless". I saw that this particular movie was posted and not only opted to watch it, but to post a link here in case anyone else was unable to see it otherwise. Sorry if I have offended anyone.
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Chasya7		#267	[url]	[-]
Regular Visitor Posts: 58 01/16/08 05:36:30	I really don't have a problem with watching movies online, but I'd rather have the theatre or DVD experience. However, I think that it is unfair that some movies are released in one country and not another. I get annoyed at how much the music and movie industry gripes about illegal downloads, but they don't make it any easier for honest people who want to watch the film but are unable to do it. I think if you have no other way to watch a film, then feel free to watch it online.
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Emilie		#268	[url]	[-]
The Help Permanent Resident Posts: 3489 01/16/08 05:55:34 Queen of Green	Thank you for sharing your opinions, ladies. They have been thought-provoking.
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JamesMcAvoyFan		#269	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 1066 01/16/08 09:38:43 Lost and in love with those piercing eyes	All opinions are indeed thought provoking. I see all points of views expressed. I wouldn't know how to do any of it. And while it IS illegal.....I wish it weren't......for reasons explained above.
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ZhoraFRG		#270	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 190 01/16/08 12:51:00	they don't make it any easier for honest people who want to watch the film but are unable to do it You can purchase the films. There are region free DVD players available, and you can order stuff from all over the world. So I wouldn't say that people are unable to watch the films they want. Just a few years back that was much more difficult. But it's expensive, and that's where the problem is. I'm sure that we all here would be happy to purchase all of James's work, if it wasn't often so expensive. And stuff that is not available on DVD......it is not available yet. Just have a bit of patience. When I became a fan of Russell Crowe in 2000, many of his older movies, especially the Australian ones, were only available on Video because they hadn't been reissued on DVD yet.....or they were only available directly from Australia.....or not at all.......but it took only two or three years until that situation had changed dramatically. So give the industry a bit of time. I mean, we are quick, we already know what a hot commodity James is, but the industry needs a bit of time to catch on to the fact, too. shelter, I'm sorry you felt personally attacked by me. That was never my intention, I was rather speaking in general terms. As I said, I can totally understand the reasons for watching and downloading stuff from the internet.....but I also think that some people make it too easy for themselves and are too flippant about the legal side of things. I think some people totally ignore that it even is illegal, and what damage is done to the movie industry......the very industry that brings us the movies we enjoy so much. So while I can understand that you and others are glad when people upload films to You Tube that otherwise you wouldn't get to see at all or would have to wait for, it shouldn't be forgotten that these people are not heroes, but are doing something illegal. As for the mysterious ways of distributing......it's a business. Nothing more. It's a business that wants to make tons of money. Most big Hollywood studio productions have international distribution deals from the get-go, but most independent productions (of which most of James's filmography consits to date) do not. They have to painstakingly struck distribution deals for each country individually, meaning: they have to find a national distributor that is willing to take the (financial) risk of releasing the movie/DVD in country X. And if all national distributors doubt that this would be profitable for them, then the movie/DVD won't be released in country X. Simply as that. That's not to say that one has to like this......but it's the harsh reality. I don't think there is any deliberate "unfairness" involved, it's just plain old business. But really.....sometimes you just have to be a little bit patient. It's very well possible that next year you will be able to purchase Starter For 10 in Brazil, because some national distributor caught on to the fact that James is "hot" and releases the DVD.

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InspectorWa

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16/01/2008 13:56

Life Inspector

Ehm... I can read long posts and interviews only if there is something concerning James, but this time I've managed to read the whole stuff too.

Well, Zhora, imagine that you live in the arse of the world, where people have Internet only in the club for big money and PCs are owned only by 2% of inhabitants (that's my bloody native town!). Sounds silly? But that's the true! If I still lived there and had patience as you wrote to wait till I get some James movies (just FYI - in Ukraine they still have no idea who James is) I could get old and have my own babies.

Concerning James movie on YouTube... Who do you think will watch them? I think those who are James fans. And I am sure that most of them had already seen these movies, so the harm to the industry wasn't that big.
I am not angel and downloaded movies myself, but only if there was no chance for me to get them. I tried on-line buying and had bad experience with it.
OK, not you can throw your tomatoes

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Selivia

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16/01/2008 16:14

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I can understand people being frustrated at not being able to get movies because they are not released in their country. Even in Australia we often suffer the same callous indignities from film distributors. However, quite apart from being illegal, YouTube is not the way to watch things - even for devoted fans.

For those movies that are available in theatres and then commercial dvd, I do not support any illegal copying - it hurts the industry, and eventurally hurts the ones we desire so much to see.

For those movies and tv series that will never be commercially available in your countries - I really do feel for you. I had the same problem with Viggo Mortensen movies, and some of those were not available commercially anywhere in the world. For those there was a wonderful person who ran a mail order site who would make copies from whatever poor source was available - but only for those things that were unavailable and out of copyright.

Fandom in all its many guises has always been a very generous community, and the seat of that ancient of all transactions - barter. Please do not feel tht I am attempting to force anyone's hand but there is another way than YouTube to resolve teh difficulty. Although it is no less illegal in the eyes of the law, my suggestion would be that those who can get legit copies might consider bartering with those who can't to make region free copies for them in order to spread "the word", or in this case, "the image". Alternatively, if people can play any region dvd's, perhaps if some become available cheaply, some arrangement can be made for legit copies to be distributed. It was because of some very very kind people in Viggo fandom to whom I will always be most grateful that I was able to see some extraordinary early movies of Viggo's. Just a suggestion to be pondered.

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shelterfromthestorm

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16/01/2008 17:57

Hey, our own thread!

Zhora, I didn't feel personally attacked by you per se. But since I started the whole thing and we were the only two posting for a while it felt more like a dialogue between the both of us than a general statement.

If I'm completely honest I was a bit taken aback by something you said. At one point you stated that it was "illegal. period" and at another "I'm not free of sin myself". I didn't quite know if it meant you had downloaded something in the past or not. Explaining... If it did mean that you had indulged in such activity it felt like a double standard to me. One is illegal, the other is a sin. You see what I mean? Since this is internet text, we lack the benefits of an actual conversation, complete with tone of voice, etc, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I feel that youtube is a major issue. If we're discussing the illegal aspect of it, in black & white, I don't see a difference between youtube, peer-to-peer and bittorrent. I wasn't happy that my first view of SfT was a low quality youtube video, but I was happy to see it at all. And I'm sorry guys, but money is an issue. Part of the problem isn't the price tag, but the ludicrous tax import my country enforces. One solution would be for me to buy something on Amazon and ship to an American address, and then have that person ship it to me. That way I don't have to pay the fee (since it's a person to person shipment, instead of a company to person one - like a gift). But, as simple as that seems, it's not, when you think about it.

I'm not trying to get anyone's approval. I'm well aware of what I did. Some may argue that it was the easy way out and that I didn't look at all the alternatives, but trust me when I say that these alternatives are not that simple for me. And they're not that simple to many of us. I swear I'm trying the patience thing, Zhora! I'm trying it out with "Becoming Jane". Since "Pride & Prejudice" was released here and Jane Austen's work is somewhat known, I have high hopes that I'll be able to see it in theaters soon. Hell, I think they're even releasing "The Jane Austen Book Club" soon! In the meantime I fulfill my curiosity on the internet. If it weren't for the internet I would not have even heard of SfT, Shameless, etc, let alone looked for them. I would never have been able to watch so many interviews and seen so many magazines.

Eh... that's it for now. I'm on a posting spree and getting *no* work done.

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ZhoraFRG

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16/01/2008 18:32

That's a very good point about bartering, Selivia.

shelter, you understood that quite right. I don't download myself (let alone upload), but I do posess downloaded stuff, for much the same reasons as everybody else.

That's why I said I'm not condemming anybody for doing it. How could I?

My point was rather (and I guess I didn't make myself clear enough here) that I often see a certain indifference in people towards the legal side of movie pirating. Or I feel that they are ignoring it altogether (again, just a general statement). It's often viewed as a very minor thing, you know, because, hey, everybody else is doing it, and anyway, the movie industry should stop whining.

So while I rely on downloaded stuff myself in some cases, I am all too aware what I'm doing and that nothing really justifies it, not poor distribution or financial problems or anything else.
Should I ever get into trouble for it, I would only have myself to blame.

Don't know if you can see where I come from.

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hannah kipje

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16/01/2008 19:22

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What does 'barter' mean?

http://jamesmcavoy.yuku.com

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InspectorWa

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16/01/2008 21:46

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Example of unfair barter - I give Anne-Marie bar of chocolate and she gives me James

It's exchange actually - smth for smth

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hannah kipje

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16/01/2008 22:22

Master of the House (Owner)
Slighty delusional yet harmless builder of this board *grin*

Thanks Oxy!
(and keep dreaming..

)

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InspectorWa

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17/01/2008 00:59

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What did I say? Can somebody refuse from bar of chocolate???

OK, new sin today - watching The Virgin Queen on YouTube....

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hannah kipje

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17/01/2008 01:01

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That's no good.. to little screen to see what he gets to look at in the bedroom..

http://jamesmcavoy.yuku.com

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InspectorWa

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17/01/2008 01:07

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No good is to tease me, hannah

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InspectorWa

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17/01/2008 01:09

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I was looking for smile for the previous post and couldn't, then I realized that I have it in ICQ...

Sorry for off-topic

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Selivia

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17/01/2008 06:26

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Yes, Barter is an exchange of goods without money changing hands, like swapping - people agree on a fair rate of exchange. A simple example is like if someone mows the grass or cleans the bathroom in exchange for a cooked dinner; or when someone drives a person somewhere and that person takes along a picnic lunch to share. It's supposed to be mutually beneficial - like if I make someone a costume and they give me a book they had in duplicate or no longer use.

So in this case - if someone is happy to make a region free copy of a movie that someone else cannot get they might exchange it for a magazine with a nice article, or some photos or posters, etc. Or maybe one person may have a spare copy of a movie and someone else can make a copy of one the first person cannot get.

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shelterfromthestorm

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17/01/2008 15:37

Gotcha, Zhora.

I think I finally understand. For a moment I thought you were saying something along the lines of 'if you watch an entire movie, it's illegal, but if you watch just a clip it's only sin'. That's what I meant when I talked about "double standards". I stand corrected. And you're right, the minute you download something you are a part of an illegal activity and you can't condemn others for doing the same. Reasons may not be justifications, but we all have our own for doing what we do and I think everyone here has a conscious. I've had this kind of conversation before with some friends and the opinions range from "I wouldn't touch anything pirate/bootleg" to "everybody does it, so why shouldn't I". Even a "Hooray for downloading, I say stick to the man!". I actually know one person that has never bought anything pirate or downloaded anything in his life! But he is the exception.

As for the whining movie industry... I'd love it they'd also put into consideration that they lose a lot of money making huge budget films with hundreds of millions spent on publicity that no one wants to see. There have been plenty of films that open to a big box office on the opening weekend (due to hype) and flop on subsequent weeks due to bad reviews and poor word of mouth. It's things like that that can really break a studio. But I guess low quality films is a whole different discussion, eh?

And again, I'd like to reinforce that I didn't feel you were *attacking me*. Unless someone deliberately calls me a bad name I'll always assume we're simply having an adult, intelligent and mature discussion (because we are all mature, especially in the pictures threads, right ladies?

). Granted, I think it'd be better if we were sitting in a pub and discussing this over a few pints instead of *you post* then *I reply*, but hey... This ain't so bad either.

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shelterfromthestorm

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17/01/2008 15:56

InspectorWa wrote:
Example of unfair barter - I give Anne-Marie bar of chocolate and she gives me James
It's exchange actually - smth for smth

How's "The Virgin Queen", IW? I saw "Enigma" again last night and saw Anne-Marie's in it. Acting opposite another great Scot. Lucky lady.

I did a youtube search on James today to see if the Craig Ferguson show was posted. It wasn't, but someone put up "The Last King of Scotland". Luckly I got to see that one in the theaters. I didn't exactly have my crush back then so I didn't pay that much attention to a particular scene. *cough cough* I think you all know which one.

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InspectorWa

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