Atonement *SPOILER THREAD* in Atonement Forum

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Atonement SPOILER THREAD

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hannah kipje	Atonement SPOILER THREAD		Lead	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 12958 May 15 08 1:15 AM Master of the House (Owner) Slighty delusional yet harmless builder of this board grin	Tags : None Remove this ad Here you can can post about Atonement without using spoiler tags. If you have not seen the film (or read the book) and do not wish to read spoilers, stay out of this thread http://jamesmcavoy.yuku.com
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CUBABC		#1	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 104 May 15 08 7:28 PM	Oh, goodie, goodie...Okay, so I have a question, I know that Robbie died of Septicemia, caused by the unattended wound to his chest, but why do you think he kept it hidden?...Being a Medical student, he must of known the consequences of not treading the wound...Do you think he had a death wish of sorts, because... A) He probably thought he would never see Cecilia again, thus there was no point in him going on, living without her B) He knew that he was beyond help and accepted his fate C) After what he had seen during the war (and the lie that had put him there), he lost faith in humanity and decided to give up on life
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Sophz456		#2	[url]	[-]
Sleeps on the couch Posts: 1282 May 15 08 7:35 PM Surrounded by Creative Energy	He wasn't a Med student, he was sent off to war before he got the chance I don't think he'd ever give up, I don't think he realised what was wrong with him, towards the end he would have become delerious, and there was no way Robbie could ever be cured. Septicemia is normally fatal, it's very serious (the blood itself becomes septic), so even if he hadn't've kept it hidden, he couldn't have been cured. Also, at the beginning of the Dunkirk scene, the Sergeant/Commander/Higher person in authority says they had orders to leave the wounded behind, so Robbie wouldn't have said anything for fear of not being allowed home.
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Mylan512		#3	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 2149 May 15 08 7:50 PM Official News Gatherer ?	Yeah.... I agree with Sophy. I don't think Robbie realized how badly he was hurt, and by the time he would've figured it out.... he was going delusional. I don't think Robbie would have ever given up on returning home to Cecelia. Never. She was his driving force. When he had the vision of his mother washing his feet, he said that he was always keeping her waiting and that she loves him, and you can see in his delusional, yet sincere eyes, that he was determined to make it back to her. When he went back to Netty, he was adamant about finding that cottage. Poor Robbie.
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CUBABC		#4	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 104 May 15 08 9:53 PM	Sophz456 wrote: He wasn't a Med student, he was sent off to war before he got the chance I don't think he'd ever give up, I don't think he realised what was wrong with him, towards the end he would have become delirious, and there was no way Robbie could ever be cured. Septicemia is normally fatal, it's very serious (the blood itself becomes septic), so even if he hadn't kept it hidden, he couldn't have been cured. Also, at the beginning of the Dunkirk scene, the Sergeant/Commander/Higher person in authority says they had orders to leave the wounded behind, so Robbie wouldn't have said anything for fear of not being allowed home. I thought he was premed, from what he told Cecilia in fountain scene. I think he had an idea that what he had was bad, that's why he probably kept it hidden, imo... If they would have caught it early on, he could have been treated, but your right, at that point it would have been fatal. I am surprised he lasted that long...
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Sophz456		#5	[url]	[-]
Sleeps on the couch Posts: 1282 May 15 08 11:24 PM Surrounded by Creative Energy	They didn't have penicillin in those days, so there was no treatment for it - I asked my mum who has a medical degree if there was anyway Robbie could survive if he had been treated in the first stages of septicemia for my fan fiction but she said no Cee says: The Old Man telephoned last night, he says you were planning on being a doctor. Robbie replies: I've been thinking about it yes. What I gathered from that was he was only just thinking about it. But I suppose he may have read up on things (He did own a copy of Gray's Anatomy) Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so I suppose we can interpret things differently
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Bluebell66		#6	[url]	[-]
Actually lives here Posts: 1930 May 16 08 6:39 AM	When I think about what Robbie had to go through my heart breaks in million pieces... He is the main reason I can't bring myself to forgive Briony, in any way, shape or form. Everytime I try to understand her a little bit, I remember the hell she put him into, and it's really impossible to accept what she did. I agree with Mylan and Sophie that Robbie was very detemined to return. The way he says "I will return...our story will resume" is very determined, like he would never admit another option. When he sees his mother, even being delusional he was adamant about it. The way he says "...and she loves me. She's waiting for me" is so full of hope... And even when he was almost dying, when Nettle tells him about the ships returning, he smiles a little bit. I'm sure that Robbie died convinced that he would be in one of those ships (altough I have another way to interpret that scene and I'll talk about it later). And, btw, that's the same perception we get from the novel - even on his darkest hours, he never gave in on hope. In a way I think that, since Robbie was wounded, he started to live in some delusional world. Maybe it was the effect of his illness, but also that he knew, in a way, that his was a serious case and there was a possibility that he wouldn't make it. So he chose irreality over reality. Maybe, if he had told Nettle and Mace about it, they would have helped him search for some medical aid - even if he couldn't be cured, was there a possibility he would survive long enough to at least return to England and die near Cee and his mother? Oh, well, who knows...but maybe, refusing to think that he could die, that he had to return to Cee, that it was the only possibility after all the horrible things that had happened to them, allowed him some illusions to deal with his own awful reality... And since we are talking about reality vs irreality...here's the interpretation of Robbie's final scene I wanted to talk about. The other day I was watching again (on You Tube, because the dvd wasn't released here yet) the moment when Robbie has the "reward" nightmare and Nettle wakes him up. Robbie says something like "Thing is, I've decided to stay a little bit...I'm meeting someone and I'm always keeping her waiting..." What do you make of "I've decided to stay"? I've never thought about it much, even though "to stay" is a contradiction to his wish "to return". But following Robbie's delusional logic, since Nettle told him the cottage "is here", and Robbie believed him, maybe he thought he was really there after all and this time he had to wait for her, because Cee was the one who was always waiting for him? Something like "She said she would meet me at the cottage by the beach and now that I'm here I can't leave..." When I thought about it this way the scene was even more poignant... Edited 1 time by Bluebell66 May 16 08 6:43 AM.
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Sophz456		#7	[url]	[-]
Sleeps on the couch Posts: 1282 May 16 08 10:00 AM Surrounded by Creative Energy	Oh my God Bluebell!! I never thought of Robbie's final scene in that way.... But now you've said that I think you're right. That must mean that in Robbie's delusional world... He must have died in the "cottage"... That's so sad. During the scene when Cecilia dies, I always get the impression Cecilia almost wanted to die. At that point she knew Robbie was dead, and since Robbie was her 'one reason for life', when she saw the water and had a very calm, almost expectant look on her face. All Cecilia and Robbie wanted to do was be together, and the place they longed to meet up was the cottage by the beach. I really liked that there's where we see them for the final time. Together. Happy. In love. This has probably been said before, but I think that we what we see is Robbie and Cecilia's heaven.
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hannah kipje		#8	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 12958 May 16 08 12:21 PM Master of the House (Owner) Slighty delusional yet harmless builder of this board grin	I have never been doubtful about why he hides the wound. The key is in the book. He is a natural leader and he has a map only he can read, so the two other soldiers follow him to Dunkirk, but they both have a higher rank than Robbie, which is what makes him as a leader sort of a thing to be ashamed of by the Mace and Nettle. This is why they tease him relentlessly with all kinds of things and Robbie has to stay the stronger one. Since he has no way of getting his hands on meds (they did have penicillin in those days Rory, it was WWI where they didn't have it yet) it is better not to show any kind of weakness, including being wounded... http://jamesmcavoy.yuku.com
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Mylan512		#9	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 2149 May 16 08 4:06 PM Official News Gatherer ?	These are all great insights. Bluebell, I re-watched Robbie's last scene, and it makes sense him wanting to stay there because he already thinks he's in the cottage. It's sad, but at the same time, I'm glad Robbie thinks that's where he died. At least there was some peace knowing that he finally made it. Hannah, What you said about Robbie not wanting to show his weakness because he had to lead makes me love Robbie more. He's not only a lover, but he's a fighter and a leader. I have a question. Staying in the same scene (Robbie's dying scene).... he closes his eyes to sleep and he remembers the night he was taken away to jail, they flash a scene where he walks through the field of poppies. Do you think the director used that as kind of a foreshadowing of Robbie's death? Because he dies shortly after that flashback, but we don't find that out until the end. After re-watching it a gazillion times.... I started to take notice of that scene more, and it looks like he was taking his final walk in that scene. What do you guys think?
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CUBABC		#10	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 104 May 16 08 5:47 PM	Remove this ad Sophz456 wrote: They didn't have penicillin in those days, so there was no treatment for it Penicillin was available those days. In 1942, the first patient was successfully treated for streptococcal septicemia, with US made penicillin. It made a huge difference during WWII, in treating patients with amputations and infected wounds. Edited to shorten quote Edited 1 time by hannah kipje May 16 08 11:42 PM.
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CUBABC		#11	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 104 May 16 08 6:04 PM	Mylan512 wrote: I have a question. Staying in the same scene (Robbie's dying scene).... he closes his eyes to sleep and he remembers the night he was taken away to jail, they flash a scene where he walks through the field of poppies. Do you think the director used that as kind of a foreshadowing of Robbie's death? Because he dies shortly after that flashback, but we don't find that out until the end. After re-watching it a gazillion times.... I started to take notice of that scene more, and it looks like he was taking his final walk in that scene. What do you guys think? It's funny you should mention that, because it reminded me of the scene from "Gladiator", with Russell Crowe, when he knows his time to die, and in his dream he is walking through a field of wheat, to meet his deceased wife and child. It's a very symbolic scene, sad, but yet so calm and peaceful. Edited to shorten quote Edited 1 time by hannah kipje May 16 08 11:44 PM.
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Mylan512		#12	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 2149 May 16 08 6:46 PM Official News Gatherer ?	Ahh yes, the scene from Gladiator (great move, btw). Anyway.... so if you really pay attention, you might just know that Robbie dies there in Dunkirk and the apartment scene is made up. But I don't think it's something you get on the first viewing. I thought that was quite interesting.
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hannah kipje		#13	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 12958 May 16 08 11:50 PM Master of the House (Owner) Slighty delusional yet harmless builder of this board grin	Yes, I think that is exactly what it means Mylan, well spotted. Cuba I had already mentioned they had anti-biotics in those days as well, but I said 'penicillin' and that is not totally true. At the beginning of the war they still only used gentamicine, and penicillin came shortly after. So during Dunkirk (2-10 June '40) they would have at least had medication to fight blood poisoning (it helps to do research for your Atonement Fan Fiction..) http://jamesmcavoy.yuku.com
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Bluebell66		#14	[url]	[-]
Actually lives here Posts: 1930 May 17 08 1:44 AM	Yes, Mylan, Robbie walking through the poppies' fields is a symbol of his death. But they are also a symbol of rebirth (and by "rebirth", maybe it could be Briony giving him and Cecilia life again, in the pages of her novel?). Remember that poem, "In Flander's Fields", I posted a while ago and the significance of poppies for the British people? Also, later in the same scene, Robbie (in his hallucination / dream) hears the soldiers singing "The White Cliffs of Dover", another WW2 symbol for the British: There'll be bluebirds over The white cliffs of Dover, Tomorrow, just you wait and see. I'll never forget the people I met braving those angry sky's I remember well as the shadows fell the light of hope in thier eyes and though I'm far away I still can hear them say Sun's up for when the dawn comes up There'll be love and laughter And peace ever after. Tomorrow, when the world is free The shepherd will tend his sheep. The valley will bloom again. And Jimmy will go to sleep In his own little room again. There'll be bluebirds over The white cliffs of Dover, Tomorrow, just you wait and see. And of course, in the last scene, we see Robbie and Cee at the beach, and the white cliffs of Dover, where the cottage was... Another scene I also think symbolizes Robbie's death is when we see the match's light slowly fading away, while he's looking at the picture of the cottage...
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sxpnce		#15	[url]	[-]
Actually lives here Posts: 1956 May 20 08 7:16 AM Making my heart skip a beat	I agree about the poppies. The scene is very similar to that of Gladiator, great movie. Brining over a quote I found in the Dec 2007 issue of Marie Claire on seeing Atonement "Don't miss these stunning new flicks. Atonement Can't summarized, just go. Go for the smokin'-hot love story (based on the Ian McEwan novel) that pits Keira Knightley against James McAvoy in a battle over who's the dewier; fresher; more glowing bit of eye candy. Go for Knightley's enviable 40's style: the emerald gown, oxford heels, and crimson pout. Go for the sound editing-yes, sound editing-which weaves elements like a tapping typewriter into a magnificent score. Just go." How right she is, just go see it and you will see why. As for what was brought up on the other thread: Yes, I think that Briony felt very abandoned by Robbie. He goes away to college after the lake incident and she feels very alone. Then after he comes back, he is taken with Cee and she with him though she tries to ignore it. Then after what she thinks she sees at the fountain, it is very easy to see how Briony had him go from hero to villain. I am only know reading Atonement for the first time and enjoying it very much. I love getting all the details that a movie may leave out.
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Bluebell66		#16	[url]	[-]
Actually lives here Posts: 1930 May 20 08 9:28 AM	I edited my other post from the non-spoiler thread, so here's what I wrote there: I think that maybe she felt a bit "abandoned" by Robbie, when he went to Cambridge - something that happened after the "jumping in the lake" incident. Reading the book, I had the feeling that Robbie was more like a big brother to Briony than Leon himself. He gave her swimming lessons, she gave him copies of her stories. They had a pretty good relationship, but when Briony started writing her stories, she also started fantasizing about him, giving him the role of prince in her stories. And since the incident in the lake, when Briony told Robbie she loved him, maybe she thought she had a different relationship with him now; he was no more a big brother, he was something else. But then he left to Cambridge, and had other friends and interests, so even when he was home he didn't spend much time with her anymore. He and Cecilia had just finished college that summer of '35, so he was hanging around the house more (obviously because of Cee) and to Briony it was like her prince charming had returned to stay. In that scene you talked about we can see how Briony feels proud when Robbie told her he had kept all her plays, and even a bit shy, because he's giving her attention. And she invites him to watch Arabella because it seems like she wants to resume something with him. Robbie was the male lead, the hero of her stories after all. He was the medical prince who saved Arabella and fell in love with her. It was only when she saw the scene by the fountain and read the letter that she began to change his "role" - from hero to villain. Oh, you're reading the book, six! It's a wonderful novel...I think the book and the film complement each other beautifully. I've always thought that Briony had some sense of ownership over Robbie - like a character belongs to an author. Briony loved him in a very distorted, strange way, because in fact she was too self-involved to love someone other then herself. Briony was a bit of a misanthropist, and I guess she saw the people around her more like characters at her disposal. So she gave Robbie a role, and because of jealously, a sense of not being part of Robbie and Cee's story (hadn't Briony been already expelled from her own play, when Lola took from her the role of Arabella?), feeling abandoned (and in a way, betrayed) by Robbie, and upon seeing all the things she saw, she decided to give him the role of villain. And later punish him, because that's what should happen to all the "bad guys". Briony is a very complex character. What she did to Robbie was not just a child's "mistake". It was much more complicated than that, especially because she maintained her lie for years and years, even when she was totally aware that he was innocent.
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CUBABC		#17	[url]	[-]
Knows the way to the fridge Posts: 104 May 20 08 7:23 PM	I wanted to comment on something that James mentioned in the "Lunch with David-JM" clip...He said that audiences here in America found the chocolate bar scene with Paul Marshall (Benedict) and Lola funny...James found it weird, that American audiences thought the scene was funny, given the fact that the Paul's character is clearly a pedophile and he is trying to seduce Lola. I have to admit I found it funny (not funny ha-ha, but funny nervous and weird), when I first saw it as well. I think its cultural thing; sex on a whole makes Americans nervous. To spite all the porn that is sold in this country, the strip clubs, the swinger's bars, etc, we as a nation, are still very repressed about sex, while Europeans tend to be more open and accepting, when it comes to sex (in movies, in magazine ads and on TV) and drugs for that matter. Take for instance same sex marriages, I think it's horrible that a gay man or woman (who shares a home, car, bills, children, etc), cannot get health insurance for their partner, simply because they are of the same sex, or that the media refuses to show condom ads (proper ones, not those cartoonish ones, that they've been showing lately), for teenage pregnancy, AIDS or other sexually transmitted diseases, on TV. I cannot believe that we are in the 21st century and people are still squeamish about these sort of things, why? Is it because it goes against their (Middle America) interpretation, of what is written in the bible? It's no wonder that we are not ready for a black man or a woman to become President of this country, America is afraid of change. But I digress...So, do you all think that Lola was "knowingly" seducing Paul, in that scene, or did it just seem that way, because he was indeed a pedophile? Edited 1 time by CUBABC May 20 08 7:51 PM.
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Sophz456		#18	[url]	[-]
Sleeps on the couch Posts: 1282 May 20 08 8:28 PM Surrounded by Creative Energy	I thought Lola was knowingly seducing Paul. She's not a girl, she's not yet a woman (Go Britney) so she's at that tricky age where she wants to grow up. I think she intended on toying with Marshall, but I'm still not sure if the rape was a rape or not.
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hannah kipje		#19	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 12958 May 22 08 12:06 AM Master of the House (Owner) Slighty delusional yet harmless builder of this board grin	CUBABC wrote: I wanted to comment on something that James mentioned in the "Lunch with David-JM" clip...He said that audiences here in America found the chocolate bar scene with Paul Marshall (Benedict) and Lola funny... I have to admit I found it funny (not funny ha-ha, but funny nervous and weird), when I first saw it as well. I think its cultural thing; sex on a whole makes Americans nervous. Wow, thanks for explaining that Cuba, because to me the laughing reaction seemed strange as well, but now I understand. It's too bad your society is so uptight when it comes to sex. Here in Europe we also tend to find it very strange that you are so much more strict in censuring sex scenes and even mild nudity than in censuring violence. I don't know about American kids (being brought up in a society that thinks that way), but in Europe kids do not usually get traumatised by seeing nudity or even a sex scene in a normal film. (Hard Porn is another matter, but that is not really shown in places where they can 'happen' upon it, unless parents are being very irresponsible with their rental stuff). The very young ones will not know what they are looking at and therefore just think they are hugging or play wrestling or whatever and the adolescents will only find it veeeeeery interesting... That is how we look at it here though. But as I said, maybe if you grow up in a society that is so uptight about sex, maybe you will be traumatised quicker by being confronted with it as a child because of how your parents react or something.. CUBABC wrote:But I digress...So, do you all think that Lola was "knowingly" seducing Paul, in that scene, or did it just seem that way, because he was indeed a pedophile? The girl was fifteen! And undoubtedly still very inexperienced in that field. But she was at at age where she started to become a woman and started to notice the change in behaviour in men towards her and how she could influence that and she found it very interesting. So of course she would experiment with flirting and things like that! That doesn't mean she wanted to have sex with him or that she is too blame in any way for what happened. The moment she said 'no' it should have been 'no'. And at that age even a 'yes' should have been double checked especially when there is such an age difference involved. So I personally think she just flirted with him a bit but that she really was raped and did not ask for that to happen in any way. I think she married him for two or three reasons: 1) As a way of either convincing herself it didn't happen and it wasn't him, or to convince herself it wasn't rape because she loves him (which she doesn't). So by marrying him she sort of tries to 'undo' or deny the rape for herself. This may sound weird, but it is the same psychological reason why some rape victims (especially when it happens at an early age) become promiscuous. By making sex something unimportant, their mind tries to convince them that the rape was not that bad either. If they make having sex something that has the same lack of intrusion as brushing their teeth, then being raped is no worse then having a toothbrush forced in your mouth. Or so their young minds make them think.. Which is why SO many women in the porn industry admit to having been abused as a child... 2) To gain an enormous amount of control over him (which he had over her during the rape) so she can make him suffer for what he did for the rest of his life . This is especially clear in the last chapter of the book when Briony runs into the elderly couple again and describes how Lola treats her husband. 3) To get her hands on the biggest fortune in the country which she probably thought she deserves as payment for damages. http://jamesmcavoy.yuku.com
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mcavoyfan		#20	[url]	[-]
Permanent Resident Posts: 4132 May 22 08 1:12 AM Would love to photograph James nekkid Official JMMB video library builder Board Contributor	Remove this ad I think she married him also because, in that time, if a young girl was in a scandalous situation, having them married off somehow legitimizes it as a real "relationship" and therefore clears her of any guilt of having "asked for it". It's really sad what women went through back then. ~Theresa~ Just slightly obsessed with JM
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